The ORCHESTRA-Podcast, Episode 2
Communicatiobn, Collaboration and Courage
Episode 2 – “Communication, Collaboration and Courage” are prerequisite for successful teamwork. We invited three very special guests, who have extremely meaningful and interesting careers, who contribute with their personal insights to “communication, collaboration and courage”: Prof. Evelina Tacconelli, the head of ORCHESTRA, Maestra Gabriella Carli, an international conductor and concert pianist, and Jules Grandsire, Head of all Internal Communication of the European Space Agency (ESA).
Marlene Nunnendorf:
Hello and welcome to the ORCHESTRA podcast. ORCHESTRA is a large scaled European and international cohort research project on COVID-19. It is designed to find rigorous scientific evidence on treatment and prevention measures, and provide research infrastructure that contributes to a pandemic-preparedness for the future. ORCHESTRA is part of the HORIZON 2020 programme and receives funding from the European Union. This is episode 2 – We talk about communication, collaboration and courage, which are all very much needed when tapping into new territories, such as building up large new research infrastructures from scratched, as it is the case with ORCHESTRA. We have invited three very special guests- let me introduce them right now for you to have an idea, why it is definitely worthwhile to stay tuned.
Our guests are: Evelina Tacconelli – she is the head of ORCHESTRA, professor of infectious diseases at the University of Verona and director of the infectious diseases section at Verona University Hospital. She is a consultant on infectious diseases research of the University of Tübingen DZIF, the German center for infection research. She leads several international projects, targeting epidemiological and clinical aspects of antibiotic-resistant infections. Evelina initiated the ORCHESTRA project with her team from the University of Verona and leads 37 partners from 15 countries, managing international and multidisciplinary teams within the network.
We also invited an orchestra-conductor – as the projects name is ORCHESTRA, inspired by the harmonious collaboration within an orchestra – there is certainly a lot to learn from an experienced conductor. But she is not just a conductor, she is the wonderful Maestra Gabriella Carli. She is also a concert pianist and a stage director. She has studied and worked in many of the orchestra sites, directed many international orchestrae, she has been rewarded with the L‘ Ordine al merito della Repubblica Italiana (the Italian medal of honor) in 1991, she holds a PhD in German literature, she is the founder of “Get back up again” (a foundation to support victims of violence). Last year, she initiated “COVIDistic” concerts to commemorate COVID victims.
And last, but certainly not least, Jules Grandsire. He is the head of all internal communication of the European Space Agency (short: ESA) in the headquarter in Paris. He is working for ESA since 2007 and in 2013, he became the youngest ever head of communication of the European Astronaut Centre in Cologne. Jules is responsible for communications of the astronauts-selection process, he is a podcaster and artist, he holds a Master in literature and in MBA. ESA is an international research infrastructure founded in 1975, and looks back of 40 years of collaboration, communication and courage.
My name is Marlene Nunnendorf and I am ORCHESTRA´s science communication officer. Welcome everybody! It is such an honor to have you here.
Evelina Tacconelli:
Thanks Marlene. We are very impressed by the CV and experience of my colleagues here today. I am eager to hear about your experience in your specific field, because I am very sure to learn a lot.
Marlene Nunnendorf:
This is actually a quite good bridge to our beautiful topic “communication, collaboration and courage”. Maestra Carli, you are a very experienced international orchestra conductor. What is the art of communication about?
Maestra Carli:
I think the most important thing is that really everyone is free to play his part, not to try to overwhelm the colleagues, but to achieve a balance. Everyone must contribute to a harmonious play of the piece, because the conductor has to conduct, but the musicians have to listen to each other. If you don’t listen to each other and first of all to yourself, then you will not find the balance in the sound. And so, I think this thing could be applied on the human being. In a teamwork, it is possible to achieve this, only if people are not aggressive, not arrogant and do not want to be above the orders, because you have to respect the line. The main line in a group has to be accompanied by the others. It is not like the leading voices are better and have to be arrogant. You know what I mean? And I think this should be applied also in the human communication.
Marlene Nunnendorf:
Very wise words. You are saying listening comes first.
Jules, you are the head of all internal communications of ESA. So, what is from your perspective and experience the arts of communication about (within an international network)?
Jules Grandsire:
First of all, I am sure you know this well: Communication is at the center of everything. And we are not talking about PR. I am thinking of how people talk to each other, how they share information, their principles of doing this. If you want to succeed, communication has to be the center of everything. I think it would be easy to say, tolerance is what you need when you work in an international and multicultural environment with your multicultural partners. How do you achieve tolerance? And this is what Mrs. Carli said before – I think you need understanding, if you want tolerance. And if you want understanding, the first thing you have to do is listening. It seems an easy step, but if you are under pressure, like we all experienced this in the pandemic, and you are under pressure, then it is easy to forget to listen. There is nothing else I will bring you to understanding and to tolerance in the end than listening.
Evelina Tacconelli:
Marlene, I can add something. Until now, I really like what has been said until now about the importance of communication and tolerance and listening and what I have learned living in different countries is that even if you use the same words, you might not mean the same meaning. And so, several reactions – I learned with age – that could have been avoided, if just taking the time and asking back if what you understood is really what the other person wanted to say. Sometimes you read the others according to your value. But if they have different ways of using words, even if they are the same words, then I sometimes perceived some of the questions or comments that I received as aggressive. Then, after a while, I understood it was just the way that the specific hospital or country or group were discussing and that they were absolutely not ever aggressive, although I perceived it as that. Now, I know that before answering back, I take a minimum of 3-4 hours. Then, I come back and for sure there is another way to look at a problem, which may not even be a problem. There is a beautiful movie, where the director was showing exactly that. So, the same words between two actors had a different meaning, even if the words were the same and the actors had the same age or the same gender. And I do believe that this is something important that we should not forget.
Marlene Nunnendorf:
Yes, very interesting thoughts. That reminds me of something that a colleague from WP7 told me the other day that the challenge in communication does not result so much from the different languages within Europe, but more so from the different meanings that stem from the interdisciplinary work. What do you think?
Evelina Tacconelli:
Exactly. Every time we speak with each other, I have this strong impression. Even with the same language (not only English but whatever we speak), it is impressively difficult to link. But I am sure that the other participants of this podcast, have made the same experience. I don’t know why, but I think that everywhere the interdisciplinary approach is very different.
Marlene Nunnendorf:
We can see that everyone is confirming.
Jules, ESA has partaken international cooperation for more than 45 years. What is ESA’s mission?
Jules Grandsire:
ESA is the European Space Agency, and the main issue of ESA is basically to bring European states to space. To bring Europe together for big space projects. We do this in all programs of space, everything you can do in space. Be it science and exploration, so we bring astronauts into space and to the space station, going out to the solar system or even the universe, earth observation with programs like COPERNICUS or other programs, to understand the consequences of climate change to make better decisions. Or navigations, what people use every day satellite navigation to go from A to B, we have a big European project here as well. Rockets, which are one of the symbols of space… and many other programs as well. So, ESA’s mission is to be the gateway for Europe to space and bring Europeans together, when the program is too big that they cannot do it on their own.
Marlene Nunnendorf:
One of the reasons we invited you is that ESA and ORCHESTRA actually have some things in common: both are large scaled, European based, international and interdisciplinary research infrastructures. What actually led to ESA, it was certainly was not a pandemic?
Jules Grandsire:
Well, in our individual lives we know this as well: sometimes the task is too hard or too big to achieve it on your own, right? We all had that at some point within our lives. So, when the task is too big, you bring collaborations – that is what you do with cohorts. And that is what the ESA started to do 50 years ago. When the space business/industry was booming, it was clear that at some point states needed to come together to achieve great things.
Marlene Nunnendorf:
Evelina, I am sure that this is somewhat true for ORCHESTRA as well – I am curious now to hear a little bit more in detail: What was the spark that made you start the project?
Evelina Tacconelli:
I did not want to start ORCHESTRA – that is the reality. We have had enough struggles with clinical activities and patients and all the projects we already had. I think was the enthusiasm of my team. They read it and said: “This is something that we can do, please apply!” And I said: “We have only ten days. There is no way that we can do this”. And then, they said: “But we are the right people”. I am lucky enough to have my team of younger scientists really with a lot of enthusiasm. What we share together in every team, I had the luck to direct and coordinate, we do believe that what we do is not for research, but for the patients. So, the type of activity I do is always related to an impact on people’s life that they can see. I could never ever work in a lab for 50 years to find the protein that maybe would save in 25 years life. I am very happy that these people do exist, because our life is depending on them, but what I need when I do research is to see that what I am starting will have a final result that will be of use. Our idea with ORCHESTRA was that we already have enough activities within our European countries, not to start new ones using European money, but to try to get the best out of each country and bring people and scientists together to see how we can change the Sars-CoV-2 pandemic for the better.
Marlene Nunnendorf:
Maestra Carli, you are a very self-empowered and courageous woman. In 2009, you became a victim of violence, when a stranger came and broke your hand and you were not able to play the piano for more than a year. As a result, you created the foundation “Get back up again”, to support victims of violence and in 2021, you initiated the “COVIDistic” concerts. What inspired you?
Maestra Carli:
So, I created this word “COVIDistic”, thinking of the consequences of the pandemic and I wanted to mirror back to society through music, what happened in the world and what is happening with us in society because of COVID-19. So, I created this word and the sense is to show the restrictions, the limits we are exposed through this pandemic – especially in the three categories: the space, the time and the sound. The concerts are limited first of all in the time: the program is shorter, because we don’t have a pause and intermission because people may not meet, which were one of the big problems in COVID – the isolation. So, the short program is also because the ensemble is smaller: so also, the space. Less time, less sound and less opportunity to meet people, and then of course we are less public, because people may not go, people are afraid, safety-regulations, distance – so many causes that bring us little audience. And, of course we all had deficits. But, at least we did something. We showed something, that is possible to do it with a good will, even in difficult circumstances. You know what I mean? And then, I was thinking of resilience, because I am a victim of violence that they could do all the same thinking of the others. People ask “Why did you do that?” – I did that because it is very simple but no one did it before. And as I was thinking “Why not show it in music? What is happening in our society? What are the limits we have and who knows how long we still live with it?”
Marlene Nunnendorf:
Yes, Maestra. This is a very good example for communication and the importance of music.
Please tell us a little bit more about your aim.
Maestra Carli:
I would like to say, we would have known to pull out Europe from the pandemic with music. That would be a great goal, because Dostoyevsky said that we can save the world with beauty. Maybe music and the arts could save the world, because people need beauty, not only pictures of bad things we see hear every day.
Marlene Nunnendorf:
Jules, you also emphasise on the importance of the arts for communication.
Please share your approach with us.
Jules Grandsire:
Yes, that is true. I think there is a direct link between the arts and space. I don’t think that space is only science communications. I don’t believe that. I think space is something that is much more than science. It is of course science, but there are bridges between the world of the arts (pic arts, music, philosophy (if we can call this arts). I think space brings together a lot of people in the world and in society. I like to make these bridges more visible. That’s it. I think those bridges exist and I think it is important to make them visible, since again space is not something that is reserved for only a few scientists or few engineers. It is really a made for everyone and everyone benefits from what we do in space. A lot of people like me, are fascinated by what is out there, by the simple feeling of wanting to explore and wanting to know more. And I think that is the natural feeling and it is lot of beauty to be found out there, not only visual beauty, but beauty in how the world works, beauty in more knowledge about our environment… And I think this is something that seeds very deep in the hearts of every human being.
Marlene Nunnendorf:
So, both of you have actually quite a similar approach to the significance of arts and communication. Maestra Carli, you give proof of a lot of solidarity in your work.
Tell us a little bit about the role of solidarity in the project.
Maestra Carli:
People should show solidarity and not think of themselves because otherwise you don’t get out of this pandemic. So, this theme works and we also see this in the medical world. Also, there, I have many friends and there is also competition. Is it true Mrs. Tacconelli? They say: “Now the career? – Let´s put it a little bit behind – at least for now. But, we get out of this terrible story.”
Marlene Nunnendorf:
Yes, Maestra, I think we could not agree more.
You have conducted in many different countries. What are the differences in collaboration?
Maestra Carli:
You know, music is the least material of the earth. So, really you do not need words for communicating music. But, nevertheless, sometimes if an orchestra is formed by local people, that they are all from the same country. Maybe there could be a different motivation, a different character (e.g. a South American orchestra has a lot of temperament, the orchestrae from the East maybe are a little bit more rigid or something, but it depends!), or maybe they have a different repertoire (e.g. Bulgarian dance, Czech dance tend to have more temperament). In this case, you could say you conduct an orchestra in these repertoires, they are very alive. If you play another piece, they might not be so alive anymore. They have a kind of sound. And then there are international orchestrae – where I had several, also younger orchestrae – they donate their real sound, all sound. These you can find in all big orchestrae. They all have their sound. It doesn’t depend on the nationality of players, because they are international, but they have all their unique sound. In that case it doesn’t depend on the country, you know what I mean? Thanks to the ensemble of musicians.
Marlene Nunnendorf:
Maestra Carli: this was really interesting.
I would like to touch another topic, which is courage, and the 3 of you share that. You are very courageous because it takes a lot of courage to take large responsibilities.
Jules a prime example for courage are the astronauts. What makes them so courageous?
Jules Grandsire:
Yes, well, firth of all, every astronaut is different from the next one. But, if you ask me about the courage in the astronauts, then this is the question that best answered by astronauts. I am going to try to give you a summary of what I have heard during those years. But my impression is that I have never met an astronaut, who is just someone who wants to have sensation for the sake of it. I think that is not it. I think it is a calculation between the risks and what you want to achieve. Talking about science here, the fact is, that there are many scientific experiments that you cannot perform on Earth. If you want new results, if you want to understand things better, you need to bring them to space and perform them in micro gravity. Some of these experiments need a human interaction, they need someone to perform them on behalf of the scientists. What do we do with this? Then we need women and men, who are brave enough to take the risks to be the people who will perform these experiments in order to bring the science forward. So, the way I see it, and again I am just an observer here, but the way I observe this is we are in the presence of women and men, who calculate the risk, and at the end of this calculation still think: “Yes, it is definitely worth it!”.
Marlene Nunnendorf:
Thank you, Jules. That makes a lot of sense.
Evelina, it also takes a lot of courage to lead a project of this size of ORCHESTRA. Where do you draw your courage from?
Evelina Tacconelli:
I don’t know if it is braveness or character. I have a very strong sense of responsibility in respect to the work. Some of my German friends told me that I am a pure Calvinist – maybe this is a little exaggerated. I do believe that in particular the physician work is such a serious work that you must do it without compromise. This means there is no need of being brave, you just decide when you start your work, whatever is your work, which type of person you would like to be, and what Is really important for you. And, this is very important from the beginning. If you care about results, meaning about fame and career, then you are one type of person and you need different type of braveness. If you don’t care, like I don’t, and you like what you do, and you decide that you don’t need to go through compromise, that you want to achieve a specific task, then you need collaboration, you need to find the right people. Many times, in my group – and I am very interested to find out what Maestra Carli and Jules think about it – sometimes I did not select the best person by CV, meaning sometimes that I choose people in the way I see they can integrate within the team, because if you have too many stars, it is very difficult to play together. So, sometimes I really see incredibly good scientists and they see then within the team – in my opinion, I had the feeling – this is really not working. And, sometimes I have really young scientists, maybe without too much experience, but I see the potential for the work in the future. Maybe, you really don’t need to be brave. It is just a question to trust that what you do, you do it in the best way you could. For sure, there is somebody that could do it better, but at least I feel comfortable in my decision with it the best way I can.
Jules Grandsire:
To me these resumes what you have said Evelina, because in an international environment some things can be frustrating sometimes. As you know, you have big scaled projects, ESA have only big scaled projects. And of course, a lot of thing can get frustrating, and on top of it, as you are surrounded by people you don’t like, they can get very difficult. So of course, the building of a team to make sure that solidarity will be there when you need it within a team, that is paramount in order to go the way need to go. This long way of big projects that are darn in international collaboration, especially in Europe where international collaboration means 17 different languages, cultural background, different histories, habits, and we ways to talk, ways to communicate. In these circumstances you have to make sure that the people around you are not only qualified, talented and competent, but that also they are capable of integrating certain intercultural competence… That overall, they are capable of integrating in your team.
Marlene Nunnendorf:
Thank you, Evelina and Jules for your insights on how to handle challenges in international collaboration.
Maestra Carli, maybe you have some experience to share with us – with your long career as a conductor of international orchestras.
Maestra Carli:
You know, to conduct an orchestra, you like to steer a boat as a sailor on a boat (I am a sailor) and you have a team. So, in this team, everyone is equal. You know what they mean? So, in this time, hard time, you should also try to find a balance. So, let’s say, we have also learned from this pandemic that we can be happy with less. We have to renounce to so many things. You have to find a balance inside to try to move on. And, maybe you can find inspiration in yourself. So, like myself, I am a night person and these ideas about the COVIDistic concerts came in the night to me. So, maybe the ideas come and then you can develop them. So, not only for peace but also for COVID (it means against-COVID), to let people become aware of the situation, because many people are not aware of the situation. There is a jump, a gap for now between the rich and the poor. Much bigger than it was before. So, there are so many new problems that have to be faced. And I think no country can face it alone. So, let’s say: “Let’s go together!”. Or these countries find a solution and maybe music can help us really.
Marlene Nunnendorf:
Unfortunately, we are coming to an end here.
May I ask each one of you to give us a final statement.
Maestra Carli:
What I wanted to say: It is very important to try sounds as a conductor and try to transmit. Make cooperation to find the best sound of all through your interpretation. That is not very easy sometimes, you know? Not all orchestrae let themselves be manipulated. You have to find a compromise. Iron hand in velvet gloves – is what helps you as a conductor. This is not so easy, especially as a woman, I am telling you.
Marlene Nunnendorf:
Well, it does remind me a little bit of Evelina´s style – if I may say so.
Jules Grandsire:
What was said about the international cooperation, I think, what I try to do it for myself is listen. Listen to the experts, look at the results before shouting back. Before shouting at all. And, listen and think, take your time to do that. I think, we lack a lot of this. In this moment of the crisis, I think everyone has come to the crisis mode. And, indeed, if we want to come to conclusions – Maestra Carli has been mentioning about – solidarity, the need for it. And, the time that I have to change now, is first listen, especially in our European diverse environment, there is nothing we can do or there is nothing we can communicate if we don’t start by listening to each other.
Marlene Nunnendorf:
Evelina, you have the last word.
Evelina Tacconelli:
I think it is time to start being optimistic. In particular, I am going to against what they have said, try to reduce as much as possible, listening to everything on the et. Because, I mean this “infodemia” is really killing the population. Just choose a few people you would like to hear. Start working, show more solidarity towards the other, and maybe just listen a bit more music.
Marlene Nunnendorf:
Well, thank you all very much! It has been a great pleasure talking to you. Thank you!